I’ve got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.
However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.
It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO’s are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it’s a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It’s likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.
I love you put billionaires next to other disasters
In many ways billionaires are worse than the other disasters listed.
Mostly because people aspire to be billionaires. Society would be much better off if people aspired to be hurricanes.
That is unless the bully messes with the wrong person and gets the shit beaten out of them.
And then they become adults and find different ways to mess with people, hire bodyguards, expensive lawyers, group up with other corrupt people who find joy in people suffering, shit in their diapers under their suit, etc.
End them all.
successful financially and socially
Going around with a machete makes you more successful predator. Being successful financially doesn’t mean shit and neither does having followers on social media.
Believe it or not, social interaction isn’t limited to social media. Or so I’ve been told…
I’d also want to see the same methodology when assessing being happy, have many close friends you can trust etc.
And also how they assessed “being a bully”
The human brain really seems to be built for small communities. Once the village you live in is bigger than about 150 people, all sorts of weird things begin to happen. Some people no longer feel like they’re a part of the same group as everyone else. They begin to feel like they can get away with anything, maybe even steal something, or hurt other people. Being greedy doesn’t feel wrong any more, altruism feels like a weakness etc.
I’ve been thinking about these things, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the world we live in is not optimized for the human mind or physiology. We’ve specifically designed a world that is bad for us in a number of ways.
I was curious about the studies. The only thing I came across about outcomes was this BMJ review that says:
Bullies were more likely to have trouble keeping a job and honouring financial obligations. They were more likely to be unemployed.
Or the other option: all kids are equally capable of being dicks to each other. It just depends who has social capital. Kids who have the traits necessary to gain social capital - intelligence, athleticism, attractiveness, confidence, etc - end up on top of the social hierarchy in school and also end up going farther in life.
Theoretically, all people are capable of being president, but I ky very few get there, irrespective of ability.
You’re right about their attributes being a guide. I reckon it’s down to the confidence, more than anything. Bullys are typically seen as acting out due to their own insecurity. However, the skills learned in putting themselves above others likely helps to achieve personal goals. It’s likely similar for attractive people and confidence. Confidence is a drug that affects other people.
Maybe, but it also means that you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.
There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don’t have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that’s not a bearable existence. Sure, you got power, but you’re miserable and afraid all the time. Was that really worth it?
That doesn’t seem to bother the kind of people being described
Does Muskrat seem like a happy and balanced individual to you? What about Coked up Bezos or AI Zuckerberg?
Zuckbot seems legitimately happy now after being less involved with the company and pursuing personal goals
you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.
I AM a morally decent person who makes efforts to do the right thing. And that last part is STILL true!
I just don’t like most people.
Most people are selfish and amoral. When people like that encounter a decent person, they will do what they can to silence them so they aren’t given the chance to expose corruption.
You probably don’t like most people because most people are walking sacks of shit who would throw you under the bus if it means benefiting themselves
You’d be wrong. I’m sorry that you feel this way about humanity, but that is simply not true. And believing that won’t make you a “smart” person. It makes you’re no better than those people, and it also makes you feel worse.
It might be satisfying in the moment to hate humanity, but that satisfaction is fleeting and addicting. Being a misanthrope just brings the worst version of yourself out.
Seems condescending to assume I think that belief makes me “smart”. I’m speaking on my experience, that’s the only experience I have. I don’t appreciate you trying to make me out as some kind of angsty teen rebel.
Well, your experience isn’t universal. Most people aren’t like you described.
Maybe you need a change of environment.
I want the worst version of myself out. I recently made two shitty co-workers crap themselves.
Being bad towards shitty people is a different beast from being bad towards everyone because you assume the worst out of everyone.
Righteous outrage is addicting, but it’s also extremely fucking draining. I left reddit because I’d constantly rage bait myself every day and it was destroying my relationships.
Read your profile, our stories are nearly the same!
Wow. You actually get me.
shifty eyes
I still don’t trust you…
I want nothing from you other than your social security, bank cards and pins, credit card information, medical information, your first born, your shoe size, favorite color and why, as well as your third born
There are plenty of corrupt people who are never caught, or even caught and let go with little to no consequences due to their influence and money. As much as I want to live in a world where karma exists and assholes get what they deserve, that is unfortunately not the reality we live in.
Just because we don’t see it or it doesn’t look like we think it should doesn’t mean it’s not real. Imagine being shallow and wanting to marry for how it looks on the outside. Imagine 20 -30 years later realizing you’re stuck in a companionless relationship, but refusing to end it because it makes sense on paper to keep it intact.
I believe in consequences of your actions of course, but I don’t believe there is some kind of cosmic scale balancing right and wrong. Maybe there is but that’s quite an assumption to make. Lots of old rich men and women end up in that cycle of trading partners in like leased vehicles. Some people don’t care so much for companionship as much as they care about vanity. Sad, yes, but who am I to dictate how some people find happiness.
Maybe they are happy. The people I’ve met living that way seem miserable. That’s really all karma is, cause and effect. We either learn or don’t. I really believe that the kingdoms of heaven (and hell) are inside us. That doesn’t necessarily equate to physical reality, eg, every need met can still leave people miserable, people who seemingly struggle manage to find peace, if not happiness, others who match their physical reality, often we slide among points on the spectrum of being.
I don’t see it as perfectly balanced or absolute equilibrium. I see it as more of a spiral hourglass that flips like the magnetic poles. But that’s a whole other discussion and I need to develop that concept, as I just surprised myself with it. That’s a sleepy thought.
I do find that a lot of “bully” type people seem miserable, angry, combatative. That’s likely what drives their lack of empathy though, they don’t care about hurting others because they think in some roundabout way that if everyone is upset then it’s fair. There are a lot of reasons why some people justify the way they live and a lot of them will never willingly change.
Yes karma is cause and effect but a lot of times the effect won’t happen without human intervention to force it into reality. I would describe that more as social structure or framework. Tomato potato
Outside pressures are often the driving forces of evolution, and affect everything engaged in a particular process. Dawkins talked about this, iirc.
Anyway, observing a thing changes it. There will always be latent effects. Maybe it’s not about individual learning, but collective learning, with a nod to Dawkins.
It would be great to think one day society would reward good people more often but we are still crawling to that goal
You can be selective with this power; works well for a lot of folks. Have a smallish in group where you’re always upstanding, enjoy all the benefits that our tribal brain craves, and also enjoy the material benefits.
Hey, you just described church!
via SMBC:
This is only true in a world that is mostly full of people with morals. A society built on lying and manipulation inevitably collapses - look at what is happening to the United States. They elected an amoral lying manipulator and in just six months their society is unraveling. They just passed a law that took money away from hungry children and sick people so that their psychopathic leader can better persecute his enemies: that is, anyone who opposes him. ICE just became the best-funded “law” enforcement agency ever created. It is obvious to everyone except a handful of naive idiots that ICE will be used against US citizens to consolidate MAGA’s power in an attempt to create a permanent regime. These states always collapse sooner or later, though, because morality is the foundation of law. No one is going to invest in a country where their assets can be seized and they can be imprisoned on the caprice of a senile madman. You can’t have trade without trust - all that is left in places like the US are predators and prey.
This unraveling has been going on a lot longer than just six months. It’s been accelerating hard since the Patriot Act after 9/11. And even before that, Republicans had been lying about their support of free markets for generations.
Yay capitalism! Perfect reasoning not to feel bad lying on a resume.
If they can lie about the company and position, I can lie about my experience and fit.
I’m starting to think of writing down the specific things job recruiters tell me, and bringing it to the interview. The last recruiter that reached out (and succeeded in hiring me) told me things that didn’t end up being true. When I got hired and was told contradictory information, the company said, “Oh, that is still true, but this particular case is an exception. We can get you a different case where that is true,” and then they didn’t get back to me for weeks. In that time, I’d applied, interviewed, and accepted a job elsewhere. Fuck lying employers.
By some definition of “further”, sure. Mainly the definition someone with no remorse would have.
Exactly. OPs logic only works if your definition of happiness is money and going from being the oppressed to the oppressor.
From the perspective of a rich abusive CEO, they probably are happy. They get off on having power over people, and they do. Plus they can make more money than they can ever spend.
People who become wealthy naturally seem to have some sociopathic traits, but generally they also don’t know how to stop working. They get everything they want by doing things they enjoy doing.
I have a brother who is the CEO of a fairly successful business. He loves bragging about what he’s worth, and went from watching Silicon Valley and laughing extra hard at the bit where a bunch of companies in the show are pitching how they “want to make the world a better place” to giving me those words verbatim after bragging about how much money he has. He talks about how hard his job is and he wouldnt wish it on anyone… But I have worked with him on previous businesses, and he quite literally can’t stop working (even when high and drunk at 2am). I mean he literally CAN’T turn it off.
Throughout my childhood (and still now), this person used extremely obvious domination tactics on the people around him. One of his favourite moves is to either start texting or talking to someone else while I am in the middle of speaking to him. I am willing to guarantee that having the ability to use obscene wealth to dominate people makes him slightly fucking hard.
Yeah, it aeem we have different definitions of what happiness looks like.
Yes and i would choose to have morals anyway
One doesn’t do the right thing to be rewarded or to ‘get ahead’. One does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. Selfishness only leads to insecurity and loneliness.
Yep. That’s what the selfish ones have been telling us for thousands of years.
It may seem this way at times, however, it really depends on the system you’re participating in.
Have a play around with: The evolution of trust - https://ncase.me/trust/
A system designed by psychopaths benefits psychopaths? No way…
I’ve known this for a long time but I continue to do my best to operate honorably. I may never be rich or powerful, but I sleep very well at night.
I still don’t sleep well, knowing the state of the world
Yea. Trying to be correct and do things in a respectful and good way makes me more and more bitter, resentful and judgemental.
Soon that in itself will corrupt me.
I have to manipulate and lie to myself that things will get better
Yup and add intelligence to the list as well. Smart means nothing if you can’t back it up with being an amoral pile of shit that takes advantage of people every opportunity you get.
If you are smart, you can afford the luxury of not being a complete piece of shit if you get into the right career.
I feel like that has got to be pretty difficult unless you include jobs where you are personally isolated from and ignorant of the harmful things the company you contribute to is doing
I mean every company probably has some bad effect on the world, but there’s also benefit. You have to weight the benefits vs the harm. I don’t feel like I have to be personally evil in my job or that it’s a net negative on society. I think things are better in the world because of my work. Not all things, but better on balance.
Your other comments in this thread seem to contradict that a little, at least the idea that these harms or benefits would be visible enough to you to evaluate, since you claim to have switched positions when they started becoming more visible and something you would have had to engage with directly. For software in particular, you empower your users to do whatever they happen to choose to do with it.
Which isn’t to say you’re doing the wrong thing. I just see the economy as a whole as an inherently cannibalistic system we have little choice but to be a contributing part of one way or another, with the main form of meaningful available agency being to minimize involvement rather than choosing how to be involved.
The economy as it is both provides and causes problems, but without the advanced economy we have today the majority of the world’s people would starve to death. And yes, technology can be used to bad ends, but I’ve seen a lot of applications of ours and mostly it’s just mundane “getting the job done” stuff that helps everyday people keep functioning.
Yes, there are evil people in my organization, but I feel like I’ve stood up for my principles where it counted. Yes I’ve been demoted for that, and I was much happier afterwards. Someday it may cost me my job, but I will keep losing jobs until I find one where I can be myself.
All things in life are a balance of good and bad, you just have to evaluate whether you are more on the good side or bad side. There are a lot of jobs out there that are just helping people do the stuff they need to get done, generally good. Yes some evil capitalist takes most of the profit and hoards it for their evil purposes, but for me it’s enough to know that I provided things needed by others and helped them to make it through their lives in some small way.
I know plenty of moral smart people who are doing very well in life.
It might mean money and success.
Sure but it’s lonely at the top. If you rise to the top by backstabbing people, you’ll end up exactly how some people right now are, and you keep trying to accumulate more and be great or whatever messing up everything else and being hated.
While a simple life with your loved ones will give you satisfaction. And satisfaction is the key to happiness. Rather satisfaction is the ultimate happiness.
I disagree, other than a few notable counter examples most times folks are only successful when they build reliable business relationships. Most relationships will dissolve if one party is playing games.
On average it’s more effective to follow “The No Assholes Rule”. There’s plenty of studies (referenced in the book Good To Great) that indicate that humble business leaders produce build more stable and long term profitable companies.
Lying manipulators can sometimes get ahead but just as often they get found out and blackballed.
I think it might be like a game theory type situation where if everyone is honest, then the first liar might get ahead a lot (although I suspect in that situation they’d immediately be shunned by all honest folk if found out). If everyone is a liar then honest folk have nothing to hide and probably will just be really defensive in their dealings.
Business relationships are almost always purely transactional. When you stop being able to supply someone with what they want or at a good price then they will find someone else. The average CEO is not a friendly selfless person, which is why sociopaths find success in the business world.
Do you believe that the majority of people who hold power and influence are genuine philanthropists?
I think power and money corrupts people. Plenty of people who started out as honest business people turn into monsters. As you move up the ladder, less and less people are honest with you. Some are climbing the ladder because they are unhappy and that definitely makes things worse, they think money or power will make them feel better, when actually I’ve found living with less and doing things yourself is ultimately more satisfying.
Anecdotally, I personally felt how wealth corrupted me - when my economy car was totaled and my insurance rental gave me a Mercedes because they were out of reasonable models . After a week of driving it I started feeling like I was better than other people on the road. Luckily I got a replacement crappy hatchback and became a normal person again.
I think it’s a combination of power corrupts as well as corrupt people seek power but yes it only gets worse the higher up you go. Lots of people want financial stability so it’s of course a competitive environment which invites dirty tactics.
Depends, if you were in a b-class then you have about as much aura as a prius. But if you were in a g or s-class you are without a doubt superior to that peon in the pontiac sunfire that’s somehow still running.
When I had extra money, I felt safe to donate. No clue what this power corrupts stuff is.
Business owner here, even if not a very good one. These kinds of CEOs exist, but there are far from the norm. And they usually act that way because the owners of the company expect them to lead that way. There is a crowd mechanic of many people owning some of the stock of a company. It leads to some psychopathy as nobody feels responsible and everybody wants to earn some extra Money. Look into a documentary called “cooperation”.
Most business people, especially the more successful ones are the classic boys club people. They get good deals by being friends and knowing people that give them access. It leads to a culture where what you earn has more or less nothing to so with what or how good you work. If you know the show billions, watch it and look for the making of episodes. There is a lot of real world experience in the writing.
I went to business school and worked in corporate for a while, I know our experiences are anecdotal but the ones I know that climbed the corporate ladder the best are the ones who have family connections and/or lie the best. They do come across as charismatic, charming, friendly, because that’s what works.
If it comes down to a promotion or raise though, they’re obviously not likely to voluntarily give it to someone else who may be more deserving. As a business owner I’m know sure you know when companies get larger, people end up being faceless cogs of the machine and the C suite is more concerned with hitting targets for shareholders.
Working in cooperations is the definition of insanity. Been there, it’s crazy. And yes, there the lying and cheating part is most likely to get you ahead.
I can’t disagree with that
Depends on how you define “further”. I’d like to leave this earth knowing I had a positive impact on those i met while I was here. I can sleep easy at night, even dispte all the hardships in my life atm, knowing I’m doing the best with what it is I have. Also, in my early 30’s, I started to really internalize the, “having nice things means keeping things nice” i.e. you don’t need new shiny things all the time. Take care of what you already have and you’ll never be without.
I can’t lie and manipulate my way into being a kind and honorable man, friend, son and brother. Me achieving those things brings me greater peace of mind and satisfaction than anything I’d ever need to lie my way into to get.
It makes a lot of sense. Lying and manipulation are done specifically to achieve goals. A defining characteristic of morals is that you’re supposed to follow them even if it’s neutral or disadvantageous for you. If someone follows “morals” to achieve a personal goal, they’re not actually following morals, they’re just acting in a way that incidentally looks moral.
