Love seeing how SHOCKED federated folks are at the mere implication of China being better than the US. I feel like if you view the USA from outside a highly myopic lens painted by extreme privilege, there is nothing redeemable about it. Even if the worst theories about China were true, they would be a drop in a bucket compared to how much evidenced misery the US has wrought. But most of the people slinging shit at China rarely care about the folks who are not white in the imperial core.
Liberals on the internet who’ve never been to China: "Wow, they can’t even access Meta ™ or X ™. How do they live?
Me, a Chinese person visiting NYC: “Why the fuck is there no cell signal or Aircon in these subway stations? How do these people fucking live like this in the wealthiest city in earth?”
Take a look at how the list of richest people in the world changed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It’s really quite telling.
Imagine seeing what China has done for its people and the members for the belt and road initiative and thinking they are worse than the US dedicating even more money to war is better. People literally just lap up all the piss from the oligarch masters.
There are so many instances of the CPC just up and forgiving debt from help they have donated to so many countries that are part of this initiative. No strings attached. The US meanwhile has being doing actual debt trap shit for decades. The information is out there. All you have to do is fucking look instead of regurgitating reddit bullshit some fed posted because that site is astroturfed to shit. China is trying to actually build up the world while the US tries to bomb more of it to rubble.
Liberals: “b-b-b-but weegurrrss!”
Mad respect to my comrades taking the time to try to engage and educate the liberals who literally refuse to have a positive thought about China. I’ve never seen one of them actually read an article or respond to the best points; usually they just find what they perceive is the weakest or most controversial argument and focus on that. Anything to deny the fact that sinophobic bias and believing propaganda is 90% of their reasoning for their shit takes. Still, I’m proud of the people in the community that still actively try to educate. I wish I had that patience anymore.
remember when all those people were screaming outside of their windows during covid lockdown? does PNY still have suicide nets installed on campus? hmmm…can you name a business in america that installs suicide nets for its employees?
“libs refuse to have a positive thought about China”
oh. I’m sorry i thought dehumanizing and slave work conditions were shitty. i must be wrong :(
edit: i was mistaken. my local bakery and grocery store both have suicide nets installed. damn.
remember when all those people were screaming outside of their windows during covid lockdown?
Not sure what this one is about, but China’s focus community health during covid, and the sacrifices made by thousands of Chinese medical personell, made it have one of the lowest covid infection and death rates in the world, despite being the likely point of origin.
China: 85 deaths per million
US and UK: ~3,3k per million.
The US lost a million ppl, more than it lost during ww2, sacrificing it’s elderly and infirm on the altar of capitalism.
Source: Our World it Data
does PNY still have suicide nets installed on campus? hmmm…can you name a business in america that installs suicide nets for its employees?
Foxconn is a Taiwanese comapany, and the PRC is of course not immune to worker abuses in it’s specialized economic zones. What matters is the government response, which was to quickly address it.
Also noteworthy in a given country is the state of despair and hopelessness among it’s population.
Let’s compare China to the US, as well as it’s liberal neighbors:
country Suicides per 100k China 6.7 USA 14 South Korea 21.2 Japan 12.2 Source: World Health Organization
Also I think someone below addressed your Uyghur question, but let’s look at whether the world, and Muslim countries in particular (who would be the recipient of a refugee crisis of a genocide were occuring), think about China’s handling of extremist terrorism:
Interestingly, only the white anglo countries, who’ve been bombing the ME for decades, believe a genocide is happening. The Muslim (and African, Asian, and Latin American) world disagrees.
How does the US, UK, France, etc treat it’s muslim minorities, and ethnic minorities in general? In the US, 1 / 4 black ppl will spend time in prison.
Slavery is fully legal as punishment for a crime. The US currently operates a system of slave labor camps, including at least 54 prison farms involved in agricultural slave labor. Outside of agricultural slavery, Federal Prison Industries operates a multi-billion dollar industry with ~ 52 prison factories , where prisoners produce furniture, clothing, circuit boards, products for the military, computer aided design services, call center support for private companies. 1, 2, 3
In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 200 prison camps, housing over 31,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. 1, 2
The US committed a genocide against it’s indigenous inhabitants that served as the model for Nazi Germany, and got away with it. They’re all incredibly xenophobic with respect to their muslim minorities.
Which country or group of countries, do you think is telling the truth?
Not sure what this one is about
It’s about Chinese singing with open windows during lockdown, which totally not racist westerners took for wailing of starving people when they heard it on video. Well, by “took” I mean, news interpreted it for them and they rolled with that, because they’re totally not brainwashed.
tldr
Libs seething that China is a better country that didn’t rely on settler colonialism and imperialism to grow it’s power
China is an anathema for liberals because it’s a tangible real world demonstration that viable alternatives to liberal ideology are possible. The whole argument for liberalism is premised on the idea that liberalism sucks, but everything else is worse.
Liberals promoted western model as the only viable system going forward ever since USSR dissolved. Any country that deviated from this model was painted as being backwards and a type of country you wouldn’t want to live in. Now we’re seeing China developing rapidly and going from strength to strength. China doesn’t suffer from the economic crashes the west has once every decade, it’s continuously improving the standard of living for its people, it coexists peacefully with other countries. It’s an example of an alternative model to liberalism that demonstrably produces better outcomes by pretty much every metric. This is why China is such a threat to liberals, it blows apart the argument that nothing better is possible.
They would rather keep living a lie in which they’re still the main character and that the world runs on simplistic logic akin to a Marvel movie. The illusion can’t be kept up forever with the realities of China slowly dismantling the hegemony, tho tbh it’s not like China needs to do much when the US is deleting itself
I feel like even Marvel is way more complex and nuanced and logical than the vast majority of neoliberal’s racist capitalist dogma.
Pretty much, and I don’t know whether people will ever learn to see past anti-China propaganda in the west, but I’ve come to realize that the west doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.
It’s around 20% of the global population, and the rest of the world will simply move on regardless of what the west does at this point. Majority of the world is the side of China and human progress will continue to march on.
I say this as someone who would be happy to advocate for China if I thought they were advocating for a proper socialist alternative to liberalism but sees things (propaganda?) that turn me off.
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the Uyghur genocide: is this just Western propaganda that’s totally fabricated? Are there no “reeducation camps” and no ethnic cleansing happening?
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standard anticapitalist takes: landlordism, bourgeoise rule, both things I oppose and seem to be alive and well in China. I see sometimes the State pushes against these forces, but so do European liberals. Walmart couldn’t even expand into the EU when they tried due to government regulating their shitty corporate practices so hard (undercutting at a loss to push local businesses out is illegal for example)
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authoritarianism: children being banned from video games. This one hits close to home for me since I spent easily 40-60 hours a week as a kid some weeks playing video games. My childhood would’ve been vastly different, and I’m still a programmer who is employed by Alphabet so I’m “successful” and wasn’t ruined by video games. Is the idea that video games are a cancer that ruin kids and they should be studying instead? That seems dystopian, I made a bunch of longtime friends playing games growing up (10+ years at this point). I had a lot of fun as a kid. That seems important.
Essentially China seems like a European country that also happens to be an authoritarian dictatorship. Arguably better than living in the U.S still, no doubt, but when compared to Europe I think China falls short (but socialism doesn’t). Europe/China are both incredibly far from where we need to be. Massive liberal exploitation of the masses occurs in both places.
the Uyghur genocide: is this just Western propaganda that’s totally fabricated? Are there no “reeducation camps” and no ethnic cleansing happening?
Does this look like ethnic cleansing to you?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DABhjZjPJDA&pp=ygUOa2FzaGdhciBJbmRpYW4%3D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dpmaeIaZM&pp=ygUOa2FzaGdhciBJbmRpYW4%3D
Xinjiang had a terrorism problem. There terrorist attacka happening until 2012. The government’s crackdown is in response to that and at worst it can be described as overpolicing. Can you name one person who was confirmed dead in this ethnic cleansing and genocide?
I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
I’m just using the international definition of genocide. Not a single person needs to be killed for it to be a genocide, depopulating an ethnicity from a region by destroying birth rates fits the definition too. By the Chinese government’s own statistics, birth rates in Hotan and Kashgar fell by 60% from 2015 to 2018. If that was done intentionally, it’s genocide.
I think that is really stretching the practicality of the term in order to label something genocide on a technicality based on ideological dogmatism. It is really hard to imagine a genocide where a single person is not killed. Even ignoring that, genocides always lead to a refugee and emigration crisis which also did not happen in the case of the Uyghur.
By the Chinese government’s own statistics, birth rates in Hotan and Kashgar fell by 60% from 2015 to 2018.
Is that enough to determine genocide? What were the birth rates after this drop? Were they in the red, leading to population reduction or stagnation? There are explanations to this drop that are not genocide. For example, ethnic minorities in China have always been lenient targets of China’s family planning policies. It is possible that the Uyghur were subjected to stricter family planning post the terrorism crisis for reasons other than genocide.
Many of the “china-watchers”, like Adrian Zenz, are anti-abortion, white-supremacist christian evangelicals. They view any reduction in birth rates as a genocide, even if that reduction is caused by more access to birth control. Birth rates in liberal countries, especially in countries like France, Japan, South Korea, the UK, are tanking. Do you agree with the birthers that this constitutes a genocide? (they would call it a white genocide).
We also see lower birth rates in countries that have higher economic development in general.
- Uyghur “genocide”: complete BS. Vocational training schools (call them “re-education camps” if you wish) did exist because of the severe terrorism problem @ksynwa mentioned. The population of Uyghurs in XInjiang has increased since the anti-terrorism measures were implemented
- Landlordism and bourgeois rule: only exists on local levels. The reason why the bourgeoisie is still allowed to exist in China is because it’s a countermeasure against imperialism, but the CPC (whose higher-level members are chosen through bottom-up democratic elections and can be recalled by the voters if they’re unsatisfied, unlike any bourgeois “democracy”) is in charge and they crack down on bourgeois criminals, including executing billionaires. The bourgeoisie don’t own any land whatsoever, it’s only leased from the state and can be revoked
- “Authoritarianism”: every state is inherently authoritarian. Focusing on the limits on online video games for children (single-player games aren’t affected) is an extremely silly reason to denounce a socialist project
I’ll have to look into the Uyghur genocide more. Are the figures about 1 million people being put into camps complete bull shit?
Even if the West is exaggerating the number by an order of magnitude, I still doubt there are 100,000 “terrorists” that needed to be put in camps. Why are the kids put into camps? Are they terrorists too?
Chinese government official statistics said birth rates in Hotan and Kashgar fell by 60%. If that was done purposefully, it does fall under the international definition of a genocide (which includes preventing some or all births to depopulate a region).
you’ll need to provide some sources for all of those claims, including the government statistics, before I can comment
I think you’re dismissing the limits on video games far too fast. Maybe to someone that doesn’t engage in that as a hobby it might not seem important, but to people in the space it literally redefines our entire childhood. That’s not something to just entirely ignore.
As for bourgeoise rule, there are mega corporations in China. It seems weird to say it only exists on local levels. And even if we just accept that, I don’t see how this impacts average workers. Are the workers no longer getting the surplus value of their labor stolen? Do they have proper cooperatives with worker ownership?
My understanding is they essentially just exist with European-style regulations. Decent minimum wage, some labor protections, and the bourgeoise still steal massive amounts of wealth and exploit workers for 40-60 hours a week without any democratic input on workers about working conditions.
The note about landlords not truly owning land is how every liberal state functions. Deeds are handed out by the state and can be revoked (eminent domain). And I would still say landlords are a problem in the U.S, even though the government can just take the land back. Same with China.
I do enjoy video games as a hobby, and as I said, using a proposed limit (IIRC it’s optional) on how much time children can spend playing online games to condemn a government as “not socialist” is bizarre. I don’t have to agree with every single relatively minor decision made by the CPC (and it is minor, compared to the immense improvement in living standards – including the eradication of extreme poverty – for roughly one fifth of the world’s population) to support their immensely successful project.
Please read the article “China Has Billionaires”.
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And slavery. Don’t forget the slavery.
In fact, because of the wording of the 14th amendment, it’s still cool. As long as you get locked up for committing a crime first.
For sure, the settlers colonized the land and people too
Liberals Are Here and Mad Af, Lol, Also I Wished all Liberals To have a Fun Trip to the Friendly Wall 😊
Both are integral to their respective economies. That’s the thing to understand.
Shhhh no understanding, US bad China good
This but unironically.
Which one has 800+ military bases outside its borders? Which one has been drone bombing Muslim countries for the past 40 years? Which one has Africom, operation gladio? Which one uses people for nuclear and other bomb testing? Which one assassinates leaders of marginalized ethnic minorities? Which one wiped out its indigenous population, and whose founding fathers were all slaveowners? Which one imprisons 1 / 4 black people at some point in their lives?
Oh don’t get me wrong, US bad, China also bad.
They aren’t perfect but they’re really fucking impressive and they keep on improving
This but unironically
“Let’s give 100M in aid to Palestine to make sure we don’t look too biased”
We don’t want Hamas to get it though so we’d better give the 100M to Israel in escrow to use on I mean for Palestinians.
“We’re placing the aid underneath chairs and forcing 25 Palestinian citizens along with 25 Israelis to play musical chairs for the aid. That makes it most fair”
Nice post, but curious how this counts as “World News”
I guess it’s not strictly news, but wasn’t sure where to put it. With things ramping up in the Middle East, it is kind of world news worthy to note that US is aiming to spend 100 billion to continue fuelling the conflicts in Ukraine and Palestine.
China and US are major players on the world stage. The US funding wars and China funding infrastructure to global transport initiatives are pretty globally impactful things.
True, but that doesn’t make it news per se.
New comm idea: worldolds
US bank rolling the war machine is a tale as old as time*.
*by time I mean liberal time, where history started a few minutes–decades ago.
It’s Lemmygrad. Anything that amounts to Russia/China good is news
Oh so we should believe everything the US government about countries it hates the most lol only negative news about countries you don’t like is news
Is that what I said?
Pretty much yeah
That was the implication.
My problem with this message is that it’s being sent by the same people whose legislators would never decrease defence spending and would spend the bare minimum on infrastructure. In fact, just recently, the House Republicans managed to pass H.R. 4365 with 216 R and 2 D, a 826 Bn USD Defence Budget, which is an increase of 26 Bn since the previous year and 100 Bn more than the year before that.
Yall don’t give a fuck about infrastructure or deficit unless somebody else is president.
I think you’ve got the wrong Reds lol
I really don’t, the people who spread this sort of message and take a stand against the USA supporting Ukraine defence and sovereignty are majority Republicans. Theres even top comments on this post talking about “the libs” in a derogatory manner.
You really do.
Republicans want to stop funding Ukraine cause they want war with China. We want them to stop funding Ukraine because it would be the quickest way to end the conflict peacefully.
Republicans are libs too. Libs are anyone who support capitalism and it’s ideals.
That’s a weird comment? I think Xi Jinping is doing a great job as president. Oh wait, you’re thinking of Miguel Bermúdez, my bad, that was silly of me.
This is a weird comment, I think Miguel Bermúdez is doing a great job as president.
Oh ha ha did the post not specifically mention the USA? Did it not talk about the USA spending specifically on supporting Ukraine defence and sovereignty, an issue divided by partisanship? I wonder what temporary president I would be talking about, is it the literal dictator for life Xi Xinping? HMMMM such a mystery I clearly made a mistake lololol. /sarcasm
Let’s dissect this. In your original comment, you ascribed an origin to OP, and implied a motivation for them. This is the crux of me making fun of you. OP is extremely unlikely to be from the USA, or make a distinction between the two wings of the bureaucracy making up the regime in power in the USA. Xi Jinping has held his current position for 11 years, Miguel Bermúdez for 4 years. Neither are dictators, because they are leaders of democracies. Hope this was informative.
Do you imply that US should not help Ukrane to defend themselves against Russia?
Are you aware there not one but two previous attempts at negotiations that Ukraine purposedly sabotaged on their own? Are you even aware Merkel literaly admitted the Minsk agreements were merely attempts to buy time and prepare Ukraine for war.
All the more remarkable is her admission that the Minsk agreement served to buy time for Ukraine’s rearmament. “It was clear to all of us that this was a frozen conflict, that the problem had not been solved, but that is precisely what gave Ukraine valuable time,” Merkel told Die Zeit.
Previously, the Minsk agreement, which Merkel signed together with then-French President François Hollande, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Russian President Vladimir Putin in September 2014, had been portrayed as an effort towards peace that the Russian president had allegedly later thwarted.
Now, Merkel confirms that NATO wanted war from the start but needed time to prepare militarily—an assessment WSWS has long held.
Russia negotiated in good faith while NATO never had any intention of honoring negotiation terms agreed by Ukraine.
Yes quite literaly if NATO stayed the fuck out of Ukraine there wouldn’t be any war, literaly once again, they purposedly broke the agreements which were meant to prevent war and de-escalate.
Minsk 1 was in 2014. Then there was a second Minsk agreement in 2015.
Please for the love of god don’t parachute into this war as if history began in February 2022 I beg you.
Ah yes. The famous Russian good faith and NATO forcing their hand into genocides.
From where any logical and sane person is sitting, only one side commited a historical blunder of actualy admitting to the media that the Donbas war was a “frozen conflict” when in reality there were already peace agreements between both sides.
Go complain to Merkel for making you look bad. You don’t have to believe in Russian good faith if you don’t want to, all that is necessary is to admit the actual reality of what happened and what was admitted by the west already.
Russia will not invade another country, right?
Say, can you tell me why Russia “invaded” Ukraine and not any of its other much weaker neighbors? I bet you think the conflict started in 2022
Of course I dont!
Georgia
Chechinia
Afghanistan
Czechoslovakian Republic got pacified
China
Armenia
Tatarstan
Lithuania
Finland
List goes on
In last 120 years Russia attacked almost every neighbour.
Poland fought with Russia 3 times in the last 120 years.
Will Russia stop at Ukraine?
I’m saying why did they attack Ukraine last year (stay on topic please) and not any of its weaker neighbors, which would have been a lot easier
All Russian negotiations rely on the agreement for Ukrane to give up a part of invaded lands. That is not going to happen, especially after Crimea in 2014. Russia has no claim to the lands and any negotiations that require them are a joke.
If Russia is not stopped no agreement will be final, it’s all about the ambition to rebuild the Soviet Union and “compromise” won’t do it.
Of course NATO will not directly engage in this war (as sad as it is), that would result in WWIII. It is convieniet for NATO nations that the conflict is in Ukrane, but that does not change the fact Ukrane needs and is getting support indirectly, because NATO has an interest in Ukrane winning.
Comparing that to China’s “priority” for infrastructure in the original post is at best unfair. And while arms racing in general is not a good thing, the original post lumps that together with support for Ukrane. That is the message I take issue with.
Comparing that to China’s “priority” for infrastructure in the original post is at best unfair. And while arms racing in general is not a good thing, the original post lumps that together with support for Ukrane. That is the message I take issue with.
Okay, that’s a fair point.
If Russia is not stopped no agreement will be final, it’s all about the ambition to rebuild the Soviet Union and “compromise” won’t do it.
But what evidence do you have to support this? We have a short and long term history to look at showing NATO going back on their promises, lying, sowing chaos. Russia by comparison has been reliable. Isn’t the fair thing then to try to make the compromise survive as long as possible? Because the alternative to compromise is people dying. Even if it’s none of your friends, surely you don’t want Russians dying either, right?
All Russian negotiations rely on the agreement for Ukrane to give up a part of invaded lands. That is not going to happen, especially after Crimea in 2014. Russia has no claim to the lands and any negotiations that require them are a joke.
What are you even talking about? Seriously what part of terms agreed by Ukraine you didn’t understand? Please for the love of god actualy read about the stuff you’re commenting before replying, thank you.
Telling all ukrainians to go die in war for the yanks is not “helping them”.
Thinking someone is defending their homeland “for the yanks” is a smoothbrain take
Thinking someone is “defending their homeland” when they’ve been shelling civilians since 2014 is even worse whew I can see my reflection with that kinda smooth
Nuland = yank
Nuland’s hand-picked gov works for the yanks.
If you don’t understand this, it is you who is the smoothbrain.
Assistance with weaponry and other supplies sure as hell is
giving weapons to nazis trying to extend a completely un-winnable war saves nobody’s life
Sending guns to Ukraine to keep this awful war going longer doesn’t help anyone defend anyone.
Russia will of course stop out of goodness of their little hearts.
They will not follow up to Poland and Baltics.
Ukraine either loses, or they keep fighting and a whole lot more people die and then they lose. Which is better?
Where is the option Russia fucks off?
That clearly isn’t happening, so Ukrainians have two choices, which is better?
Where is the option Russia fucks off?
Yes, but also yes. It does prolong the war, but it also helps to save civilians and push back against an aggressor.
Why was Obomba and Joe Bellend in
a decade ago?Oh I don’t know, maybe because the same exact thing happened with Crimea. All out war didn’t start, but peope died, homes were destroyed and Russia became a little bigger.
I’m gonna ask again: Why the fuck was Obomba and his shriveled sentient fleshlight Joe Bellend in Ukraine?
Spoiler: Crimea took place after the fact.
How does it help? Explain to me how supporting Ukraine a country that at this point now just forcibly conscripts anyone helps civilians. Have you talked to any Ukrainian women that had to flee from this conflict and that they haven’t hear anything about their husbands brothers and fathers? Were those people not civilians? Or are Ukrainian lives just not a thing? I guess it helps if Ukraine has less and less actual civilians because more and more have to get drafted into the army so some assholes can send another thousand poor people to walk across a minefield to get blown up after all if they are in the army they are no longer civilians.
You know who it does help? US military contractors. Ukraine has received 76.8bn USD in 2022 from the USA this isn’t counting various loans that I’m sure aren’t going to be used against Ukraine to force them to privatize everything and enforce austerity policies. EU countries sent double that 140bn USD
This is in one year from one country, we could end world hunger with a yearly investment of 23bn USD to 40bn USD, this would actually undeniably help save civilians, in fact it would save at least three times as much because the population of ukraine is something under 50mil while the population currently suffering from severe hunger is 150mil.
The only reason why you’ve been told that this saves civilians and not you know anything else is because again selling weapons is big business and the only way governments can spend money now I guess, so yes lets save those civilians by forcing them at gunpoint to go walk into a minefield so more and more and more and more and more blood can be fed into this another horrifiyng war to fight over imaginary lines because USA liberty guns or whatever wants their stock to go up.
If you truly believe in this shit, I think this is more of an online cheerleading thing for you, you should join up and fight the aggressor and prevent putin from doing a genocide or whatever.
Yes, and remember that Russia will absolutely not invade another country.
Projection. Always Projection. The western mouthfrothers can only imagine western crimes and then they project that onto nonwesterners. Pathetic losers.
Georgia
Armenia
Finland
Lithuania
Chechnia
Afghanistan
Ukraine
China
Poland 3 times in less than 25 years.
Thats last 120 years. So what projection?
It helps civilians by conscripting all the civilians into the army I guess
The US is the very reason why the war happened in the first place…
Yes. The exact point of this ampliganda.
You can pull up crazy numbers China are pushing for building their Navy and contrast it with EU spending on infrastructure and post-COVID investments.
Well thank God Ukraine has some allies to support it’s borders against an invading force. No good being friends with China.
Also USA could easily spend that on infrastructure if they wanted and they should. But it doesn’t also stop the fact that they should also help Ukraine as it’s the right thing to do.
LOL
China is building the belt and road initiative to get at resources in foreign nations like copper, which are heavily used in the war industry (the price of copper literally depends on what wars are being fought at the time). China is also spending many billions on its own war infrastructure.
The US is definitely lacking in infrastructure projects, though.
Accessing copper is far from a primary goal of the BRI. Even if it was a goal–which sure China has their own interests in the BRI, who wouldn’t–the selling point of the BRI that should be of interest to you is that vulnerable, undeveloped countries that have had no choice but being victims to Western imperialism for centuries are now getting an affordable way to develop without political stipulations or debt traps.
What China spends on their military, bottom line, is significantly less than what the US spends, not to mention all of the US’s vassals combined. When we look at the numbers per capita, China spends a tiny fraction of what the US spends.
Maybe, but is China using this initiative to pour gasoline on the fires in active conflicts?
No, because it’s an international project that requires the cooperation of the nations involved. However, China is definitely pouring gasoline around in the South China Sea with the expansion of its territories annexing land from other countries.
When the US, shall we say “encourages” other countries to “cooperate” on an “international project,” it is uses threats, sanctions, coups, corruption, and outright deadly force. Even its wicked henchmen in the EU didn’t have the stomach for the war in Ukraine, several countries dragged their feet chipping in arms knowing full well it was they who would suffer the most for the US’s choices. US has to twist their arms and pull a “We’re done, when I say we’re done” to get their “allies” to back yet another project of death, destruction, and looting.
What has China done in the South China Sea? Menacingly sailed their own ships in their own front yard? Why is this so “menacing”? Oh yeah, because the US has completely encircled them with military bases, and is trying to paint a picture that makes aggressive military action against China somehow look defensive. If you knew anything about China that wasn’t from the mouth of the biggest liar in world history, you would know China has wanted nothing but to resume diplomatic and peaceful integration of Taiwan, something that was popular and ongoing before most of us were in diapers. US, playing from their usual playbook, pours money and weapons into divide-and-conquer using disinformation and fascist empowerment.
Learn more about geopolitics outside of the US’s distorted bubble, you will find that US starts and fuels fires, and China out of all others is the one that puts them out, hence they have earned seething hatred from the biggest snake, bully, and bandit in human history.
I’m always open to learning from people who can have reasonable and rational discussions. I also expressed no support for the US in my comments.
China has published new maps that expand their territory beyond their previous maps, into the territory of other countries. This has nothing to do with anything from the US, purely what China has said in the past and what they are saying now. Much of their new claimed territory is ridiculously close to the coastlines of the Philipines and Malaysia.
I’m more than willing to call out the US on the shit they do, and agree with much of what you said on that. However the biased one in this conversation is clearly you, as you are blindly supporting China and painting them as a nation that does no evil.
There’s a lot of I’s in your comment, so let’s get that out of the way: I’m sure you’re one of the good ones, congratulations! Ok, now we can discuss things properly. Whenever someones accuses you of supporting USA in posts like these it’s because you are. When people discuss changing something and you openly criticize this change without new proposals or sugestions, you are supporting the status quo. It doesn’t matter if you agree with it completely, if you criticize some things but believe it can be reformed, or worst, if you think we should just wait around until something better comes along, the end result is the same: you’re supporting the status quo.
So we believe that China is miles better than the US, none of the things you said here changes that. China is not perfect, but there’s no point in criticizing when we are making the argument that it’s better than what we currently have. We discuss the faults and mistakes of China when it’s appropriate to do so, doing it in this post would be counter productive. It’s basic politics
The reason I started talking about myself is because you started an ad hominem attack, which you’re attempting to continue with. It’s falling flat.
I’m not supporting the status quo, I’m searching for objective truth. A broken clock is right twice a day, and the status quo can be correct in some ways - even if it were wrong in every way that matters. If you want to change the status quo for the better, it would be wise to not throw the baby out with the bath water.
We discuss the faults and mistakes of China when it’s appropriate to do so, doing it in this post would be counter productive. It’s basic politics
You’re suggesting that your only purpose for posting here is to promote a political agenda.
Why wouldn’t we be promoting a political agenda?
“We don’t need no culture except revolutionary culture. What we mean by that is a culture that will free you. You heard your Field Lieutenant talking about a fire in the room, didn’t you? What you worry about when you got a fire in this room? You worry about water or escape. You don’t worry about nothin’ else. If you say “What’s your culture during this fire?” “Water, that’s my culture, Brother, that’s my culture.” Because culture’s a thing that keeps you. “What’s your politics?” Escape and water. “What’s your education?” Escape and water.” - Fred Hampton - It’s A Class Struggle Goddammit!, November, 1969
As I said, it doesn’t matter the reasons, you’re still supporting the status quo. It’s not about your intentions, it’s about the effects of your discourse. The fact is that China’s model of international relations is better than US’s and should be incentivized, the denial of this fact is the same as the support for the opposite affirmation.
This post is supporting change, a better alternative to what we currently have. Proposing change is a political process. The fact that the word politic has become demonized by liberals doesn’t change that fact
What land have they annexed from other countries? Name one territory, city, province, or piece of land. Please, name one.
Well, China’s claims are probably that they were always Chinese territory, in spite of 100 years of history and previous Chinese government publications. But the fact is many of the islands within the new bounds on China’s latest maps are internationally recognised as being the territory of other countries. Thus, China is attempting to annex these lands from those countries. The latest maps claim territory well within 100km of the Philipines’ coastline, and it’s practically right on the coast of a Malaysian island.
Examples include Scarborough Shoal off the Philipines, the Spratly Islands, and I think there was some Japanese administrated island that I can’t be bothered to look up right now.
But have they annexed those countries? You are not describing annexation.
If an island is owned by one country, then taken by another, that is annexation.
The dispute is whether the first country owned it, however that argument is very weak.
But you said “maps claim it”, that is not annexation. You require boots on the ground occupation to annex a territory, you can’t just claim an annexation into existence.
I ask again, where has China, “taken those islands”?
You are making yourself look like a fool.
For example, the US and Canada both claim several islands and territories owned by the other. Canadian maps show they own it, and American maps show they own it. Have either of the two countries “annexed” that territory?
This just in: China cooperating with other asian countries to set up defensive positions and listening outposts in the South CHINA Sea is somehow a bad thing.
They’re not cooperating with the other Asian countries, those countries are angry with China for claiming their territory. China is cooperating with mainland countries to build road and rail networks through to the Middle East, but treats all the island countries with disdain, while building artificial islands close to their shores.
Also, the sea is merely named after the large country in the area, many other countries are in the South China Sea - but that doesn’t mean they’re a part of China’s territory. The Indian Ocean is quite a long way from India, New Zealand is in the Tasman Sea, several states are on the Gulf of Mexico, etc.
China isn’t claiming territory that’s not theirs, it multiple times offered to jointly build defensive fortifications with other neighboring countries to safeguard against invasion. Yet when they said no, they had the gall to throw a fit that China built some to protect itself.
treats all the island countries with disdain, while building artificial islands close to their shores.>>
Citation needed
Good thing that all the fortifications that China builds are within it’s internal waters or act as safeguards and watch posts for nearby countries.
Keep up the slander.
We’re discussing via writing, so if it’s anything it’s libel. But it isn’t that either - for a start nothing I’ve said is false, and neither does it damage their reputation.
China is claiming territory that a few years ago they did not claim. They’re doing this, in part, by building artificial islands very close to the lands of other countries. The idea being they want to expand their borders 200 miles around their new islands, regardless of whose territory this encroaches.
I never disputed your second paragraph, I said the reasons for doing it are fundamentally different.
This is, at best, misleading. Out of the two highest spending superpowers, choosing a random $100b doesn’t show shit. Why couldn’t you make a good point for taking care of people without playing the “my preferred violent superpower is better than your preferred violent superpower” game? Neither state is working for the betterment of its people over its own interests.
Do not pass go, do not collect $200
How many wars has China gotten into since the end of its civil war? How many places has the US invaded since then?
Opinions formed from reading reddit posts will not work here.
A few honestly, the Korean War, Sino-Soviet border clashes, the invasion of Vietnam, troops in Cambodia to help them fight Vietnam, the first and second Taiwanese Strait Crisis, the invasion of Tibet, the Sino-Indian War, and technically as a part of the UN Security council they have troops fighting in Mali against ISIS currently.
But I understand the point you are making and I’m not trying to discredit it, just wanted to give some context.
Those conflicts are also nothing compared to the terror the US has committed.
I guess a better question would be “how many civilians has China killed in warfare compared to the US since the 1940s”
We would be talking tens of thousands versus tens of millions
Absolutely, the terror of the United States far outstrips whatever the Chinese have done.
But to simply act like China hasn’t been in a war since its Civil War seems disingenuous.
But so is praising china, seemingly just to take a dig at the US. CIRITICIZE BOTH. They’re both brutal power-hungry states. They can both be wrong.
Lmao. No.
Nothing modern China has ever done in its history could ever come close to the 1 million Iraqi deaths alone.
You just wanna hate China lmao.
No, I just think ignoring what china has done wrong because of what people with your same political alliances say is fucking stupid. Communists are problematic that way. This thread is beyond enough proof. Both states are brutal and power hungry. They’re fucking world superpowers. If you can’t admit that the state you happen to like is ALSO guilty of wrongdoing…well, I’m not the one that needs to change my tune.
Fair context. Invaded is a better word. But also the number of “interventions” by the US military would simply dwarf anything China has done, anyway.
You guys are all missing the point of what’s being said. No one is praising the US. The US, as stated, is a violent, colonizing superpower. But…so is china. What is it with communists that you guys can’t accept that your preferred states are still brutal governments? Western communists never move past the “well, I have to escape the WESTERN propaganda machine!” thinking. You just start swallowing the opposing brutal state’s propaganda output.
It’s never just “the US is evil.” Which would be completely acceptable. It’s always, “the US is evil, china is the model!” What. It’s indicative of the state of online political education for our generation(s). Contrarianism is the name of the game. “Well, I’m not on this side, so I HAVE to be on that side.” No, you can call out brutal states, even if they call their party communist. But you all do love the state. As long as it isn’t that state.
But…so is china.
Source needed
What is it with communists that you guys can’t accept that your preferred states are still brutal governments?
What is it with liberals and not accepting that there are people who don’t believe what the biggest liar in the world says about governments they don’t like?
Western communists never move past the “well, I have to escape the WESTERN propaganda machine!” thinking.
Lmfao I wish Western communists would actually do this, but even if they did like you claim…imagine thinking this is a bad thing
Everything else you said is just whiny lib bullshit.
How can you be aware of the slant that western media has against communism… but believe in everything they say about communist countries anyway? Do you even know what communism is?
Neither state is working for the betterment of its people over its own interests.
What the fuck kind of sentence is this?
First off, China has consistently been working to the betterment of its people year over year for the past 70 years. In 1950, the people of China were the poorest in the world after having been completely exploited by Europe to the tune of 60% of people being addicted to opium sold by Europe after Europe sacked Beijing to force them to allow Europe to sell drugs without interference. Now the people of China have a better purchasing power parity than the people in the US. In only 70 years! Educational outcomes and health outcomes have been getting better for everyone in China, including ethnic minorities, and China runs the world’s largest system of ethnic autonomous regions where people speak their native language in all levels of schooling and their culture thrives.
The USA can barely educate and house it’s white people. Large ethnic minorities are ghettoized. The native peoples are experiencing slow genocide after the fast genocide. Native langauges and cultures are barely limping along, many at risk of extinction. Deaths of poverty and deaths of despair run rampant.
The government in China enjoys a 95.5% approval rating. This is according to Harvard who spent 15 years researching it. The US has never seen those kinds of numbers.
And finally, the US spends more on its military than the next 10 nations combined! If you take China’s military spend, and Russia’s, and combine them, you still need 8 more countries to match the US spending.
As it turns out, China is absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt working in the interest of its people. And, when you have a functioning state, that means it’s also working in the interest of the state. The interest of the state and of the Chinese people are the same. The interests of the people living on Turtle Island (native, descendants of slaves, and settlers) are absolutely not the interests of the state. None of the European settler states are working in the interest of the people living in their borders. Because that’s how bourgeois democracies are organized.
This isn’t misleading in any way. We can look at a bigger context here and it only gets worse. US has been continuously at war for 225 years out of 243 years of its deplorable existence, and US military budget is bigger than next 10 countries combined.
Meanwhile, China hasn’t been at war since the 70s, and it continuously invests in helping countries in the Global South develop their infrastructure developing win-win relationships. China has lifted over 800 million people out of poverty, and the standard of living in China improves with each and every decade.
One has to be an utter ignoramus to think that China isn’t working for the betterment of its people. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself, but you’re too ignorant to realize it.
Dude I hate the US political system. But the US beats the hell out of China any day of the week. Attempting to draw any comparison that suggests the US is acting more irresponsibly than China is insulting at best.
Taiwan. Hong Kong. Tiananmen Sqaure Massacre.
👆 how to say you’re a brainwashed idiot without saying you’re a brainwashed idiot
But the US beats the hell out of China any day of the week.
It’s true, the US beats the hell out of China in school shootings, and medical debt, racially targeted police brutality, bombing foreign countries, and number of homeless people, and… Oh I could do this for days.
Number of people in prison both as a percent of population and in sheer numbers…
Taiwan. Hong Kong.
What point are you even trying to make here by just saying names of places that are part of China?
insulting at best.
If nothing else, I’m glad you feel insulted
Listen cheese dick, you want us to send you some research projects so you can deprogram your brain from all the garbage Western propaganda has given you, or do you just want to be mocked and ridiculed?
Please do not insult cheesy phalluses by associating them with these kinds of people.
Maybe I misinterpreted the username. Perhaps I should have said cheesy meat tube
Oh shit I didn’t even notice. Haha Carry on comrade.
Taiwan. Hong Kong.
Hawaii. Puerto Rico.
Massacre
That’s not an accurate interpretation of the event at all. Please do some research. I’ll give you a link to one of our threads on this to get you started: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/1240721
Do y’all ever have anything more recent than 1989 in these comparisons? How many people has China bombed in those years versus what the US has done? I remember a ridiculous BBC article claiming the PLA killed 10,000 people at Tiananmen square.
Yeah that would be bad, but the lowest numbers for the Iraq War I’ve seen have been over 1,000,000 dead. And that’s just one war the US has committed in the past 34 years
dawg listing those three things in the face of shit like Vietnam / Iraq / Afghanistan / Israel is so fucking funny like how do you dipshits not realize how out of proportion that shit is even if we were to go full CIA history on China. You have so little awareness of actual Chinese history that you end up supporting the loser slave holding fascists of the Chinese civil war lmao.
Go read something like Killing Hope and maybe you can avoid moments like this in the future. One of the first chapters is about how the US participated in the Chinese civil war. On the slave holder side of course. The KMT, after it became clear that they were still going to lose even with US support then fled to and established what we now call Taiwan, massacred the indigenous population, and now get the support of clueless libs like yourself who somehow think they are standing for human rights or some shit.
For fun and enrichment I recommend you go read “How to Hide an Empire” by Daniel Immarwahr.
Western journalists on the ground claimed that they saw no bodies or blood in Tiananmen Square minutes after the supposed massacre. I’m sure you have a good explanation for that as well?
The Chinese government never denied that people died that night, but they denied the circumstances described by Western media. It’s telling that the perspective told by some student leaders and protestors was not corroborated by Western journalists on the ground. It’s even more telling that those same perspectives were not corroborated by other student leaders. Being precise is important. It’s just as important when talking about Tiananmen Square as it is when talking about current events in Gaza, for its undeniable that people died and providing an accurate story of what happened is essential for preserving the value of the truth and not allowing the truth to be diminished. Don’t tarnish their story by making up bullshit that generates more clicks and more outrage.
The facts tell us that soldiers died in riots before June 4th and that civilians died by gunfire on June 4th. The eyewitness accounts by journalists tell us that it’s unlikely that many (if any) people died on Tiananmen Square. The full video of “tank man” shows that the tanks stopped for him and that he was dragged away by other protestors (and certainly wasn’t run over by a tank on video).
Specifics are important. I’m not telling you to fully believe the official Chinese government statement on the issue. I don’t. In fact, I struggle to think of any official government statement that I’m willing to believe without question. I’m simply telling you to look at facts, to look at video evidence, to look at unbiased third-parties, and to ask yourself what narrative makes the most sense. Then, maybe you’ll consider what drew you to your previous conclusion.
An additional point, part of why I never tend to believe what any government claims prima facie is due to the selective nature and sort of lie by omission by such statements. I find such statements not to be false per se, but overwhelmingly lacking and unsatisfying. Much of what they say on first thought is true, but the details are left out and those are the juicy bits I tend to want to know most.
Civilians died because of you mindless crackers, and it was the heroic police that stopped the murders and riots at the Beijing square.
